Joyce Aros
I cannot imagine either one...
Sat May 01, 19:06


...of the brothers wanting a rifle when the threat was so close. The convenience and the lighter weight of the handgun would be the safety factor if there was such a thing. Using up valuable energy to get a rifle off the side of a dancing horse when the wound is painful and sapping your strength and concentration makes no sense to me and I would almost bet money it wouldn't be a choice for either one of them.

If I can recall somewhat, Coleman described Billy as firing two or three shots from a crouching position, steadying the gun on his knee. That doesn't sound like standing.

Hatch described himself as scrambling for safety but says he saw Billy standing and shooting after three or four shots were fired. That couldn't be as Billy's effort to retrieve his gun from the holster is described by others as when he is on his way down or already there; but the gun had not been retrieved yet. Billy fired from the 'crouching' position and used his knee. He couldn't shoot until he got the gun in his hand.

Lucas is not reliable as he describes himself as not getting out of his chair until he heard two or three shots. Then he had to make his way to the hallway and out to the balcony where he says he looked up and down the street yet never mentioned seeing Frank lying in the street or perhaps struggling with the horse.

He says he saw Billy sliding down the wall of the house. But then describes Billy holding his gun up over his head. Sounds like he was describing Morgan. Also, he admitted he didn't know Billy and Billy was described to him later.

Have another beer or two, Lucas!





    • Re: But then...Dan Brown, Thu May 06 8:24
      Eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable. How long was the gunfight? Approximately 30 seconds. Give or take. How long was Fuller's testimony? The individual testimonies were longer than the fight itse... more
    • Re: But then...Bob Cash, Sat May 01 16:49
      I don't think Frank did try to get the rifle, or get on the horse, but as I've said about Tom, even if armed with a pistol (and with only five shots, according to your informd opinion) if you are up a... more
      • I cannot imagine either one... — Joyce Aros, Sat May 01 19:06
        • Re: I cannot imagine either one...Dan Brown, Thu May 06 8:32
          The fly in the buttermilk is that you're suggesting that in the extreme heat of the moment the participants were thinking logically, and that, as bullets began flying, they would weigh the advantages ... more
          • I am thinking in the...Joyce Aros, Fri May 07 14:53
            ...extreme heat of the moment, they are not thinking at all; simply reacting instinctively to save themselves. There is probably no moment in which they gave anyone else a thought. Fear and shock can ... more
            • Well then , reverse logic...Dan Brown, Fri May 07 22:45
              There are many combat stories of people performing illogical or unlikely actions understress. I know of a police officer who entered a bank during a robbery, holding a shotgun, but when pressed into s... more
              • reverse logic...Joyce Aros, Sat May 08 6:17
                ...so true. I think your policemen probably instinctively went for the pistol with his right hand, instinctevly,as it was likely on his right side and that was almost a natural reaction based on years... more
        • Re: I cannot imagine either one...Bob Cash, Thu May 06 7:41
          "If I can recall somewhat, Coleman described Billy as firing two or three shots from a crouching position, steadying the gun on his knee. That doesn't sound like standing." Joyce, you are right, yo... more
          • Coleman and me...Joyce Aros, Fri May 07 9:17
            ...Bob, I went back to Coleman in the Inquest to sharpen up my dimmer switch. I am still having trouble with him and his delivery. He described himself and Billy Allen as walking along Fremont to t... more
            • Re: Coleman and me...Bob Cash, Fri May 07 13:43
              Apparently you did not read to the end of my post the same way you did not read to the end of Coleman's testimony because you fail to respond to my quoting him as saying, "I DO NOT THINK THAT BILLY CL... more
              • Jerk Reactionsgobs, Sat May 08 2:42
                Bob ... my usual excuse of not having my books to hand [and a short term memory], but did the autopsy note any wound to Billy's wrist? ... I've always presumed that Billy dropped his gun and went down... more
              • So are you relying on Coleman ....Joyce Aros, Fri May 07 14:36
                ...to dispel all other testimony regarding the original shots fired into Billy's gun hand when he was standing with his hands up and out, shots fired by Morgan and then Virgil, according to Virgil? ... more
                • So are you relying on Allen?Bob Cash, Fri May 07 17:09
                  Joyce, can you please quote directly "all the other testimony regarding the original shots fired into Billy's gun hand"? Also, please quote Virg's testimony where he mentions Morg shooting, as I don't... more
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