whether S&W made a certain gun or not. The question is was such a gun present at the scene of the gunfight. Grubbers qualifications to confirm such guns were made by S&W is unquestioinable and irrelevant.
Keefe identified the gun under question in the coroners office at lunchtime as the one being discussed, a S&W.
Keefe was then returned to the stand to show his ignorance about guns and witnessing which he did very well. He was asked to pick up the gun he had been talking about and had identified a few minutes earlier in the coroners office. He picked it up. He was asked to identify the make and stated it was a Colt. He then stated the other gun on the table was also a Colt
No third gun and no S&W and no credibility about guns for Keefe. He even admitted he didn't know much about guns. The fact he owned one and used it doesn't mean he had any special knowledge about guns. All you need to know is to put the cartridges in the cylinder and cock it and pull the trigger.
You can speculate forever about this but the testimony by Keefe is clear and his inability to tell A Colt from A S&W is also clear.
The Coroner never mentioned a third gun and only testified about two, showed two to Keefe at lunchtime and produced two in court. Credibility on the existence of a third gun. a S&W rests on Keefe who proved at lunch and in court he doesn't know a Colt from a S&W.
Keefe also testified there was no gun in the area of Tom's body and that he was unarmed.
Attempting to answer your inquiry, Mr. Gaumer, last night I accessed my Newspapers.com account and found an April 26, 1931 feature article by Harry Carr, in which he described a recent trip he took to... more
Bob ... finally found your post after searching under "Clum" ... interesting ... without plaguing this discussion with syntax or semantics, does the quote directed at Ike actually blend into the one a... more
Los Angeles Times article by Harry Carr, April 26, 1931:
"Much criticism has been spoken because two of the Clantons - Ike Clanton and Tom McLowery - were without arms in that fight. Mr. Clum relat... more
Bob ... thanks again ... could still be ambiguous, taking into consideration recent descriptions on here that seemed rife with misidentification of some of those involved ... but never Ike before ... ... more
Tom, I'm sorry I had to point out the differences in the two articles, apparently written by the same author a month apart. To me the fact that he mentions only Ike in one and Tom in the ater one cert... more
was unarmed. That would have been great and with a reasonable or likely chance of being true.
This new post undercuts that and moves it to"Who knows, maybe..."
The fact you compared the two ... more
I don't know how anything Wyatt said could be determind to be close to the truth in terms of Tom's actions. In his testimony Wyatt said in thought Tom had a gun and fired it but wasn't sure, in the 18... more
It is the same as yours. We are not going to know. A case can be made both ways and certainty is not to be had.
However we can have a discussion of it which keeps us from doing more useful t... more
I assume when you say "breaking in" you mean picking the lock or coercing the producer to hand over the keys. I'm pretty sure this would be an event that we wouldn't have to quibble over eyewitness te... more
I am of a mind that Clum talks whoppers as big as the ones Wyatt usually does. Surely Harry Carr would not be so gullible as to believe that Burn's nonsense? Did Clum?
After a gun went off and shot... more
It doesn't matter at what point Tom or Frank got shot. Someone did and that horse is not going to stand there while Doc and Morgan shoot somebody and then Doc adds the buckshot and then Virgil and Mor... more
If you look at any he of my posts on Tom, I think I have made it clear that I don't have any idea if Tom was armed, if he jumped behind the horse, or if he did try to take cover behind the horse wheth... more
I am so used to being viewed as the old lady who doesn't know what she is talking about that I sometimes get a little silly.
And like everyone else, I am still trying to figure it out though I have... more
Apology excepted (not a missprlling). Re-reading my original post about Wyatt supposedly telling Clum that Tom was unarmed but ran to a horse to get a gun, I can see how you may have thought I believe... more
Mr Cash ... I'm with you in that I have no place for conjecture ... we might as well all go home now ... but are you willing to accept Joyce's new [to me] supposition that Tom attempted to get the rif... more
Gobs, I don't think it was Joyce's supposition. I think what she was respondinding to was my description of William McLeod Raine's account in his 1927 article HELLDORADO in which he says that, already... more
Breakenridge was not in town on the day of the street fight, so I don't know where Raine got this story. Raine was in Arizona for a fair amount of time in the early 1900's so I suppose he got it then.... more
that Keefe identified as S&W in the Coroners office at lunch.
Keefe identified it there. When the two guns the Coroner had were brought to court, Keefe identified one of them as the S&W. T... more
There is no supposition in the fact that the Coroner never saw the Smith & Wesson.
It was not Keefe, but rather Wes Fuller who identified three spent cartridge's in the third weapon.
Supposition e... more
Precisely as Lee Silva said: "Simple logic."
Long before kindergarten kids know about "secreting away" items, whether other kid's toys, cookies, etc., etc.
Been there done that.
When somebody take... more
Who do you think took the gun away? Keefe identified it in the Coroners Office and in the Courtroom. Then he was forced to admit the gun he thought was a S&W was a colt.
Facts are such ugly things... more
Because pertinent facts are not to be found in the faulty Turner book coveted by the ignorant.
There is no theory needed about Tom Keefe's fear of extradition for his unresolved attempted murder ca... more
If Keefe wanted to avoid publicity he could have avoided testifying at all by claiming he didn't see anything about Tom being unarmed with no gun near him. He could have avoided testifying abo... more
I'm sure it's just the Lee Silva article he said he would send. I think you should take several days to gather your thoughts before reading it. Random question: do you happen to know how long it takes... more
...won't mention is his penchant for playing devil's advocate. Years ago he and "Grubber" and I were all on the EXACT same page with Tom McLaury. Emailing in concert - the whole none yards.
Fun and g... more
Keefe, the only one who claimed to have seen a S&W saw what he thought was a S&W in the Coroners Office at lunch time and identified it in court a few minute later. Then he was asked to look mo... more
Tom ... I think the point Kenny is making is that the third gun had disappeared and he covered his tracks by pleading ignorance ... I could also be wrong ... my earlier point was that the probable pla... more
There are two Colts according to the Coroner and presented to the court by him One was Billy's and one was Franks and were found near them.
Keefe is the only person who claims there was a ... more
I explained to you over and over the foolishness of taking Keefe's testimony at face value - only in regards the pressure hanging over him, ever since Tom Fitch first toyed with him about ONE of two l... more
Tom ... as I've just said to Bob, I also have no time for conjecture on whether Tom was armed or not ... but you appear to consider the [various] transcripts as some sort of Bible ... you are always u... more
I cannot imagine how you could believe I have no qualms about the accuracy of the testimonies. That is the whole of the discussion. Which to believe? Which to disbelieve? What evidence sup... more
Like me ... I think I read somewheres that Ruben F. Coleman was the dummy that made stuff up ... be careful out there
I've seen a few recent quotes ... and I've short term memory loss [like a few "... more
Your total ignorance about the history of Tom Keefe blocks you from simple logic. To take Keefe's testimony at face value -- in regards the pressure he was put under by both T. Fitch and L. Price -- i... more
when he claims there is a S&W. You just deny what else he said, that you don't like, because it proves there was no S&W.
You are a tragic victim of Keefe's delusions and yours about
what yo... more
that we have access to knowledge that Wyatt (or Frank or Ike or Behan or Doc or Virgil, or the rest) did not have on that fateful October 26. None of the participants knew all of the thoughts, action... more