K.t.K.
None of them examined the S & W with three empties
Fri Apr 23, 10:31

Premier gun expert John "Grubber" Culligan of New York. said the description was exactly that of a Smith & Wesson.

Mr. John Culligan's lifetime qualification:

Certified Police Armorer (by S & W Armorers School, 1974)
16 years as head Firearms Instructor status & work.
13 years as a NRA Police Combat Competitor (Master Class)
Licensed New York State Gunsmith
Member of Smith & Wesson Collectors Association
Member of Colt Firearms Collectors
SASS Member ("Judge Schofield")
Author of published article on antique firearms
Collector of firearms of the 1865 to 1910 era and re-loader, shooter, and gunsmith for same and personal use.

What are the qualifications of Gaumer and Aros?

  • Bob Cash and Wyatt admitting to ClumTom Gaumer, Thu Apr 22 23:11
    Tom was unarmed except for the rifle on his horse. Fascinating and I never heard it before! What is the source for Wyatt saying that to Clum? Always like to see Wyatt come around to the truth... more
    • Re: Bob Cash and Wyatt admitting to ClumBob Cash, Sat Apr 24 13:28
      Attempting to answer your inquiry, Mr. Gaumer, last night I accessed my Newspapers.com account and found an April 26, 1931 feature article by Harry Carr, in which he described a recent trip he took to... more
      • Faux Pasgobs, Wed Apr 28 2:38
        Bob ... finally found your post after searching under "Clum" ... interesting ... without plaguing this discussion with syntax or semantics, does the quote directed at Ike actually blend into the one a... more
        • Re: Faux PasBob Cash, Wed Apr 28 7:15
          Los Angeles Times article by Harry Carr, April 26, 1931: "Much criticism has been spoken because two of the Clantons - Ike Clanton and Tom McLowery - were without arms in that fight. Mr. Clum relat... more
          • Chinese Whispers & Exquisite Corpsesgobs, Wed Apr 28 8:19
            Bob ... thanks again ... could still be ambiguous, taking into consideration recent descriptions on here that seemed rife with misidentification of some of those involved ... but never Ike before ... ... more
      • You certainly know how to throw cold waterTom Gaumer, Sun Apr 25 12:33
        Bob On a great quote, now gone sour, from Wyatt Earp. But your scholarship about the matter and the two stories with similar or the same quotes is great. Keep Laughing Tom
        • Re: You certainly know how to throw cold waterBob Cash, Mon Apr 26 11:24
          Tom, I'm sorry I had to point out the differences in the two articles, apparently written by the same author a month apart. To me the fact that he mentions only Ike in one and Tom in the ater one cert... more
          • Bob was unarmed. That would have been great and with a reasonable or likely chance of being true. This new post undercuts that and moves it to"Who knows, maybe..." The fact you compared the two ... more
            • I don't know how anything Wyatt said could be determind to be close to the truth in terms of Tom's actions. In his testimony Wyatt said in thought Tom had a gun and fired it but wasn't sure, in the 18... more
              • Here is my personal pickTom Gaumer, Wed Apr 28 10:46
                Bob It is the same as yours. We are not going to know. A case can be made both ways and certainty is not to be had. However we can have a discussion of it which keeps us from doing more useful t... more
                • Re: Here is my personal pickBob Cash, Wed Apr 28 11:04
                  I assume when you say "breaking in" you mean picking the lock or coercing the producer to hand over the keys. I'm pretty sure this would be an event that we wouldn't have to quibble over eyewitness te... more
          • Bob; cold water?...Joyce Aros, Mon Apr 26 13:51
            I am of a mind that Clum talks whoppers as big as the ones Wyatt usually does. Surely Harry Carr would not be so gullible as to believe that Burn's nonsense? Did Clum? After a gun went off and shot... more
            • Just wondering..Bob Cash, Mon Apr 26 15:37
              Are you saying that Frank and Tom were hit by the first two shots fired?
              • Aha! Bob...Joyce Aros, Mon Apr 26 16:42
                It doesn't matter at what point Tom or Frank got shot. Someone did and that horse is not going to stand there while Doc and Morgan shoot somebody and then Doc adds the buckshot and then Virgil and Mor... more
                • I may be a rascal, but I'm not pulling your leg.Bob Cash, Mon Apr 26 18:19
                  If you look at any he of my posts on Tom, I think I have made it clear that I don't have any idea if Tom was armed, if he jumped behind the horse, or if he did try to take cover behind the horse wheth... more
                  • Horses For Causesgobs, Tue Apr 27 2:21
                    Mr Cash ... I'm with you in that I have no place for conjecture ... we might as well all go home now ... but are you willing to accept Joyce's new [to me] supposition that Tom attempted to get the rif... more
                    • Re: Horses For CausesBob Cash, Tue Apr 27 7:12
                      Gobs, I don't think it was Joyce's supposition. I think what she was respondinding to was my description of William McLeod Raine's account in his 1927 article HELLDORADO in which he says that, already... more
                      • Profuse apologies from this 75 year old ...gobs, Tue Apr 27 10:00
                        but is Breakenridge now a reliable eyewitness? ... am I the only person who hasn't read this? ... cheers
                        • Re: Profuse apologies from this 75 year old ...Bob Cash, Tue Apr 27 11:12
                          Breakenridge was not in town on the day of the street fight, so I don't know where Raine got this story. Raine was in Arizona for a fair amount of time in the early 1900's so I suppose he got it then.... more
                          • Thanksgobs, Tue Apr 27 11:14
                            A fine synopsis ... again, take care
    • So then, ...Joyce Aros, Fri Apr 23 11:24
      ...Matthews outright lied about whose gun it was; but to what end? Joyce
      • The Coroner produced the weapon thatTom Gaumer, Sun Apr 25 11:49
        Joyce that Keefe identified as S&W in the Coroners office at lunch. Keefe identified it there. When the two guns the Coroner had were brought to court, Keefe identified one of them as the S&W. T... more
        • Re: The Coroner produced the weapon thatK.t.K., Wed Apr 28 2:51
          There is no supposition in the fact that the Coroner never saw the Smith & Wesson. It was not Keefe, but rather Wes Fuller who identified three spent cartridge's in the third weapon. Supposition e... more
          • I don't understand your use of the word suppositionTom Gaumer, Wed Apr 28 11:41
            KtK in this context? The Coroner only saw two Colts. Keefe claimed he saw the S&W in the coroners office at lunch. The two Colts were brought into court and Keefe identified one of them as th... more
    • None of them examined the S & W with three empties — K.t.K., Fri Apr 23 10:31
      • The point has nothing to do withTom Gaumer, Sun Apr 25 11:36
        Ktk whether S&W made a certain gun or not. The question is was such a gun present at the scene of the gunfight. Grubbers qualifications to confirm such guns were made by S&W is unquestioinable and... more
        • It has everything to do with it.K.t.K., Sun Apr 25 11:54
          Precisely as Lee Silva said: "Simple logic." Long before kindergarten kids know about "secreting away" items, whether other kid's toys, cookies, etc., etc. Been there done that. When somebody take... more
          • You are all theory and speculation-non factsTom Gaumer, Sun Apr 25 12:13
            Who do you think took the gun away? Keefe identified it in the Coroners Office and in the Courtroom. Then he was forced to admit the gun he thought was a S&W was a colt. Facts are such ugly things... more
      • None of them examined the S & Wgobs, Sat Apr 24 2:10
        None of them examined the S & W with three empties! You should have explained that before and more clearly for the thinkers among us Still taking in Jim's fine ... will get back Incidentally,... more
        • ...won't mention is his penchant for playing devil's advocate. Years ago he and "Grubber" and I were all on the EXACT same page with Tom McLaury. Emailing in concert - the whole none yards. Fun and g... more
        • According to Keefe the S&W was recoveredTom Gaumer, Sun Apr 25 12:23
          gobs Keefe, the only one who claimed to have seen a S&W saw what he thought was a S&W in the Coroners Office at lunch time and identified it in court a few minute later. Then he was asked to look mo... more
          • Tom ... I think the point Kenny is making is that the third gun had disappeared and he covered his tracks by pleading ignorance ... I could also be wrong ... my earlier point was that the probable pla... more
            • gobs There are two Colts according to the Coroner and presented to the court by him One was Billy's and one was Franks and were found near them. Keefe is the only person who claims there was a ... more
              • How else can we expand you mind?K.t.K., Sun Apr 25 21:16
                I explained to you over and over the foolishness of taking Keefe's testimony at face value - only in regards the pressure hanging over him, ever since Tom Fitch first toyed with him about ONE of two l... more
                • You have theories about why KeefeTom Gaumer, Mon Apr 26 2:25
                  KtK said this or that but wish to ignore what he actually said. There is no missing S&W as Keefe saw it in the Coroners office and on the table in court. the only problem is that he was wrong ... more
              • Double Bluffgobs, Sun Apr 25 15:21
                Tom ... so there was a third gun and he was lying, or there was no third gun and he was lying, or under questioning, he played the deluded fool ... why, I wonder? ... bests
                • Right. We should all wonder.Tom Gaumer, Sun Apr 25 16:43
                  gobs Also we need another option. He was a fool and proved it in court. Keep Laughing Tom
                  • And A Glutton For Punishmentgobs, Mon Apr 26 1:58
                    Like me ... I think I read somewheres that Ruben F. Coleman was the dummy that made stuff up ... be careful out there I've seen a few recent quotes ... and I've short term memory loss [like a few "... more
                  • Re: Right. We should all wonder.K.t.K., Sun Apr 25 20:37
                    Your total ignorance about the history of Tom Keefe blocks you from simple logic. To take Keefe's testimony at face value -- in regards the pressure he was put under by both T. Fitch and L. Price -- i... more
                    • You take Keefes testimony at face valueTom Gaumer, Mon Apr 26 2:47
                      ktk when he claims there is a S&W. You just deny what else he said, that you don't like, because it proves there was no S&W. You are a tragic victim of Keefe's delusions and yours about what yo... more
    • and of course...Joyce Aros, Fri Apr 23 5:58
      ...the horse Wyatt referred to was Billy Clanton's most likely, though it could have been Frank's. Either way, Wyatt slipped up again because he was not a great thinker! Joyce
      • Never Forget . . .Gary Roberts, Sun Apr 25 6:40
        that we have access to knowledge that Wyatt (or Frank or Ike or Behan or Doc or Virgil, or the rest) did not have on that fateful October 26. None of the participants knew all of the thoughts, action... more
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